Unedited Transcript
Rich Lombino Hey everyone, it's Rich Lombino, therapist and lawyer. Welcome and thanks for joining. In this podcast, I explored topics for maintaining good mental health, expanding your knowledge, developing insight and creating and sustaining behavior change with the goal of improving the quality of your personal and professional lives. Alright. Let's get started. Rich Today's topic is how to make and maintain friends as an adult. Rich My guest therapist and author Hope Kelaher, also known as the Friendship Therapist. Rich Hope, thanks for being here. Hope Hi Rich, good morning. Rich Yeah yeah. Rich Doing well. Rich I did want to mention that hope and I met back in Graduate School and we're coming up on actually 10 years this spring and it's hard to believe it's been that long. Hope I know it's crazy. Hope It feels like a long time, but sometimes it doesn't feel as long as it has been a decade kind of crazy rich. Rich I know, I know. Rich Ah. Rich And. Rich Yeah, I could see that 'cause we've both done a pretty good diversity of things in our careers since then, so if you could maybe just spend a couple minutes until the audience a little bit about yourself, that would be great. Hope Sure, well I am a licensed clinical social worker I'm following. Hope Like you know, getting our degrees at Columbia, I studied at a place called the Ackerman Institute. It. Hope For the family and so my specialty is a systemic and relational therapy, which means that I think about the relationship that individuals have with themselves on an intrapsychic level, but also the relationships that people have within the multiple context of their lives with their home life, their work, life, their community life. Hope I consider where people are socially located on the on a more macro level and the ways in which you know our families of origin impacted and influenced the ways that we behave in the wall. Hope And and I am currently located in New York City. Hope Do we need teletherapy for just about a year? Hope This is sort of, at least in my notebook, the anniversary of when covid affected me. Hope So that's a little bit about who I am. Rich Thanks, thanks. Rich That's really that's really helpful. Rich And and thank you for all the work that you do, helping the people that you do. Rich And yeah, I mean we're going to definitely get into how Covid has impacted. Rich Really, all all of us in in different in different ways, not just professionally but personally mental health wise. Rich So I'm glad you you mentioned that. Rich Well, I said earlier author. Rich So who published a book called here to Make Friends? Rich How to make friends as an adult and says advice to help you expand your social circle, nurture meaningful relationships and build a healthier, happier social life? Rich Do you want to take a minute first just? Rich Just you know how did the book come come about? Hope Sure, I think it sort of stemmed from a variety of factors. Hope You know in my practice, you know working with families, but also individuals. Hope I saw a number of folks really struggling to in making friends as young adults as they moved to New York City. Hope Navigating and negotiating work life balance. Hope But also in my personal life, somebody very dear to me was really struggling with social anxiety and making connections. Hope And I I was offered by Ulysses Pass to kind of put out this book and it could not have been a better fit for you, know those clients that I see professionally but also. Hope You know a family member that was really. Hope Struggling and so I think it's it's a topic that a lot of people do talk about, which as you know I'm an upper limit millennial and having had multiple moves in my life and different jobs, it is a struggle to make and maintain friendships, especially for those who might be. Hope A little bit more introverted knew to a certain community or who suffer from social anxiety. Hope So I just thought it, you know, my hope is that people can use this book. Hope I think it's a pretty easy read. Hope They offer lots of tips and opportunities for self reflection, but it can be a useful tool for people an an an A guide. Hope Some of it's very basic but it's always good just to get that refresher. Hope So that's sort of how that came about. Hope Fortunately or unfortunately, the book was. Hope First published in January 2020, just before the pandemic. And so, as you might imagine, and as you and I will be talking about the way in which we make and maintain friendships nowadays will look slightly different than it did in a pre covid world. Rich Yeah, absolutely I would say. Rich That book is so accessible like you had said and it's not dense at all. Rich You can. Rich You can jump into into different different chapters and. Rich And also if after you've read through the whole thing, I've found it personally helpful to go back, and if there's particular topics that resonated with me or I think could be helpful in that particular moment moment where I'm at. Rich It it was good, it's great, and even before covid I think you know personally it it. Rich An lot of people in my life as well, whether they're therapy clients were or otherwise, that expressing difficulty the older you get, the more challenging it could be to make and maintain friends for a variety of factors that will get into. Rich But I think the book. Rich Even though I think what you're saying is it, what it's not geared towards a Co host Covid world because Covid didn't exist when you wrote it, but I think the book is even more import. Rich And now and and it is applicable. Rich All of the content in there too, to what people are experiencing now because it's that much difficult to to meet people and and not just meet them. Rich Because it's not. Rich Rich I I really, I've always felt that maintaining relationships is the most important part of it because you could be introduced to people all the time. Rich But if you don't make that effort and the other person makes doesn't make that effort to grow the relationship, it's just going to stall and kind of fade away. Hope So true, rach. Hope So true. Hope And I think you know I see a lot of folks struggle as they emerged into young adulthood and maintaining friendships they're disconnected from. Hope Maybe anchor institutions such as you know, college or hometown, and then they're forced to work, and then, especially as people. Hope Have life course transitions that include families. Hope A lot of that attention will go to the family or an intimate relationship and not enough time. Hope I think for many people spent on maintaining their friendship. Hope And the cost. Hope And this is something that they've seen too many times in my own practice is that when people reach retirement, they've only focus on their employment or their family, and then it. Hope Hi. Hope Hope It's, you know, even harder, to reintegrate and to make friends. Hope So I think. Hope You know, we know that there's so much research out there that indicates that people who are part of Community. Hope Have you know improve mental health and outcomes happier, healthier lives you know and we need evolve to some extent from you know living and working in communities. Hope And so I think it's so important that we that we all make a concerted effort to sustain, maintain friendships and community. Rich Yeah, yeah, absolutely especially now. I mean, I think everyone's can have some feelings of isolation even if you do have people in your life like you're saying, because we really, I think, need a an. It sounds like what you're saying need a variety of relationships in our lives. Rich And as each stage that we go through, if we, if we're single and then the next if we couple up with someone. Rich And. Rich Oftentimes whatever relationships we have outside the couple. Rich They're just not as active anymore because you're you're taking up time with the person, the new person who's who's in your life, or if you're still single and you're close group. Rich Develop relationships with other people you have less access. Rich To them, and that could really cause cause isolation even though you know theoretically you have all these people in your life and they're good friends. Rich Just lives. Rich Get busy and the reality is they just don't have as much time so. Rich Making that that effort to reach out and maintain, yeah. Hope Yep, so true. Hope You know not to kind of go back to my own experiences with covid, but you know the community that I had in New York City. Hope A lot of people had a, you know, decided to relocate and so that becomes even. Hope More challenging to mantiene that sense of community via the Internet or phone or text or DM, so I think it's it's changed some things really, I think causing this. Hope Longing for so many to you know. Hope You join the community or make a new community during this time. Rich Yeah, absolutely. Rich Well, how about what do you think? How about you talk a little bit about some of the techniques that you describe in the book, and maybe if if there's sort of 2.0 updates on how you know, given it's a covid world as opposed to a pre covid world, how I'm sure a lot of it. Rich Would be totally applicable, but if there are any instances where hey, here's a supplement to that initial tip given the fact. Rich That were mostly communicating online or video or phone. Rich What do you think? Hope Sure, I think that sounds great. Hope I think it's you know it's first important to really know what type of personality you have. Hope Are you an introvert? Hope Are you an extrovert or you and ambivert? Hope Because you always wanna set up realistic expectations for yourself. Hope I I truly believe in setting people up for success. Hope So I think the first step is really figuring out what capacity you have. Hope So for instance. Hope Introvert introverts rather, you know, tend to recharge, having alone time. Hope So when you're trying to make friends really knowing your limits so supplementing in person time with friends, perhaps with social media, maintaining and following up with friends using social media can be really helpful. Hope Seeking out people like yourself. Hope You know, if you're an introvert and you're interested in extroverted, that person. Hope Will you have capacity for that person or that group of people? Hope For being very intentional on scheduling fun dates, you know, for instance, I'm going to be spending time with her friend this afternoon and you know, she's a little bit more introverted and one on one. Hope Gatherings are a little bit easier for her if you lean on the more extroverted side. Hope Extroverted side I think it's important to really make quality time count. Hope Sometimes extroverts just like to go out there and be social in large groups of people. Hope But really, focusing on quality, not necessarily the quantity of time learning to sit in the discomforts of silence, and maybe other people, I think, is also important for an extrovert, like looking to make friends. Hope Side note I I imagine that you know for extraverts when they. Hope We integrate into a post covered world. Hope It might be harder to sit in that discomfort because they've been longing for that connect. Hope Then, and if you're an ambivert, which is a blend of an introvert and extrovert, you know you probably have a greater capacity for meeting friends because you already know your balance. Hope You know, I, you know truth be told which prepandemic I would qualify myself as a Luddite. Hope I am not a big fan of technology. Hope I do believe that there is a lot of value in in person connection and I do encourage people to try. Hope And that so you know, typically some tips of making friends is to really try to be as open as possible. Hope You know, thinking about the types of people you are typically attracted to and going to places where you might find those people. Hope If you like golfing, you know, going to the golf course. Hope Taking classes might be helpful. Hope You know, asking friends to introduce you to other friends if your if your social life has mainly been on line as it has been for many people taking those relationships to an in person experience. Hope You know, following up when people deal invites you would you reach out. Hope To connect with you. Hope You know, I I something that I think has been pretty. Hope I'm popular during the pandemic. Hope Is getting a pet, you know I have a dog and without my my dog. Hope During the pandemic I don't think I would have been left without a community. Hope A lot of my community left New York City as I. Hope As I mentioned an. Hope Through my dog I was able to meet a number of you friends at the dog park taking her out on on walks. Hope You know, people are always curious about dogs and it's really nice buffer or animals to to get to know people. Rich Yeah, definitely. Rich Definitely. Rich Rich Yeah, I mean dogs. Rich They provide often usually that unconditional love that they're so happy to see you when you get home, and I think. Rich I don't know, this is just my opinion, but they they could almost sense. Rich Like if you're not doing well if you're feeling kind of down, they might snuggle up against you a little more than than normal. Rich So yeah, you're right. Rich I think I can imagine it. Rich It's a. Rich It's a real benefit to have. Rich Having a dog or really any any animal there as opposed to just kind of. Rich Being their static, so this will. Hope Totally and and some other opportunity is, you know, just talking about some of my clientsexperiencesmeetup.com is a great way to explore different types of communities. You know I have a friend who sort of. Hope Stayed out, you know the quarantine in California and was able to meet you and interesting people through some hiking groups that they participated in. Hope You know the. Hope Hope You know, this particular person is very athletic and likes to work out and so we go to the beach and would find different groups to workout with. Hope I I mean, given this person you know, does not suffer from any limitations like social anxiety and it's pretty confident in doing that, so that might not be the greatest fit for some other people. Hope So, but also examining your networks, something that I can speak. Hope To in my kind of coded survival state is really exploring old networks that I had. Hope So considering that you know some of my closest community members left the city, I was able to reconnect with people from. Hope My hometown through social media. Hope You know people from college an also through, you know, just. Hope Even in my building being being willing to come to say hi to somebody in the elevator. Hope Anne and the Legius networks are also a great opportunity for a number of people. Hope You know, and in my book I do kind of talk about ways to lend your virtual community to your. Hope Your life would be though community an number of friendship. Hope Finding websites such as Bumble or friender or click or peanut or Scout. Hope Can really help connect people who are interested in making that first step, but perhaps. Hope Would not be not best suited to just like walking up and talking to somebody. Hope Sort of that. Hope That sort of that that that it can be easier for people to connect virtually. Rich Yeah, absolutely. Rich And you know what's great is there are especially with the weather getting better in a lot of areas of the country. Rich There's outdoor activities that you can do even if you know you and the others haven't had a vaccine yet, that can be safe, and you mentioned like one example you gave was was golf for example. Rich You can social distance wear masks and still be able to talk to people and have that that interaction so. Rich Up Rich Rich I think that's a great point that you're making that OK. Rich You know 'cause there's a varying sort of risk tolerance that people have. Rich Some people are more comfortable eating in restaurants right now. Rich As long as everyone is wearing masks and other people don't want to, don't want to do that so, but sort of thinking outside the box. Rich What are some activities that we could do outside? Rich So it's a great. Hope Point right so. Hope Golf is 1. Hope Tennis is another. Hope Hiking is another rock climbing I've been hearing. Hope Some people take too. Hope Volleyball volleyball is another activity that has social distance softball baseball. Hope I think people would be, you know, surprised to think about the number gardening is another one that can be socially distanced. Hope I mean, I, I do think that I do think you know the thing that comes up or is coming up a lot for me. Hope Now in my own practice, which is this concept of the social battery that you know a lot of us have been quarantined for such a long time. Hope Some of us intermittently quarantine. Hope But that the capacity for in vivo socialization has diminished. Hope You know, I'll give you an example I have. Hope I'm working with a middle school child who's going into high school next year and you know one of her concerns was will I be able to? Hope How am I going to? Hope Perform when I go back to school. Hope I haven't been in person school in a year and a half. Right? Hope Math. Hope Yes. Hope Hope And so I think a lot of people are having anxiety, especially if socialization was making friends with hard to begin with. Hope And so some tips around that that I can offer is go for the low hanging fruit, meaning if you are inclined first, I think at this point it is important for people to actually get outside of their homes. Hope Whether that's a walk around the. Hope Block if they feel safe enough to go to the grocery store, but practicing with those very very small like socialization experiences. Hope If you are not comfortable going outside to a restaurant or indoor dining, then. Hope Go get a Cup of coffee. Hope You know, say hello to the coffee person, just practice. Hope Practice engaging with people. Hope If you haven't done enough of that during the covid period, you know one thing I'm seeing is that some people are really kind of taking some of their virtual experiences in person. Hope They're setting up like friend dates. Hope They're scheduling time for themselves to meet with other people. Hope Well, that can be helpful and I know you know I'm an upper limit millennial, but a lot of my. Hope Pierce really use text text in DM to communicate. Hope One option is to like get on the phone and have a voice conversation with people that will, from my perspective, increase your capacity for reintegration after covid. Hope When we are expected, you know, not expected. Hope But like if you want to go and spend time with people you want to build up that muscle again. Hope Some of us haven't really had many opportunities to workout those muscles, so finding the low hanging fruits where we can remember when we were in offices. Hope He had the, you know, the water cooler conversations, the. Hope The checking in with, you know the receptionist answering the phone on and so for some of us it's it's, uh, it will be. Hope It might be harder to be integrate after, so finding those low hanging fruits practicing, flexing those muscles, starting slow if. Hope Social anxiety is something that you experience a meeting with one or two people. Hope Uhm, you know those are just some some thoughts and I think that meetup.com can really support people in that way. Years ago I worked with a client and her one of her challenges was social anxiety and she was able to find a meet up group where other people Hope Suffered from social anxiety as well and they would just go on walks where they didn't talk. Hope So I'm very hopeful that people can can sort of re emerge in at healthy and comfortable way. Rich Yeah, that's great. Rich That's a lot of tips right there and. Rich Really setting realistic goals for yourself and I always say you know somebody is ambitious. Rich There's nothing wrong with being ambitious, but if you're trying to start new behavior, improve existing behavior. Rich Really, starting with absolutely realistic and achievable goals is the way to go because. Rich If you know you're gonna, even if it seems like oh, you know I could work out three days a week, why should I start working out one day a week or only 15 minutes instead of an hour? Rich It's like, well, the goal is to kind of build things up, not just your muscles physically, but the the momentum. Rich Get get it going and feel good about yourself that hey, I worked out today as opposed to. Rich Skipping a day, that sort of thing. Rich So I think that that point for me. Rich I mean, you said a lot of good points, but that really resonated with me because it could seem if it seems overwhelming then. Rich Just like he said, the low hanging fruit start super small and go from there so hope do you want to touch on anything, anything else. Hope I, I think to your point, which is to have compassion for yourself, realizing that you know first setting realistic expectations for yourself, but also like being kind to yourself if it doesn't feel comfortable, or if it doesn't. Hope Work. Hope How a lot of people tend to internalize rejection or failure, but you know, friend finding is sort of like dating. Hope Not everybody is going to be a good enough fit, and it doesn't necessarily have to do with anything you did. Hope And so I really want people to. Hope Practice compassion. Hope You know when, when, when their friend finding in a pre versus post covid Hope World 'cause that's very important. Hope Sometimes people can be really affected by rejection, but keep on moving. Hope You will find your people. Hope They're out there, I promise. Rich That's really great hope and optimistic for the future, and there are opportunities out there. Rich And you know, try and try out a lot of the tips that you get. Yes. Rich In the book, because some you may already know, but just haven't done in awhile, and some you really didn't maybe think about so it's it's a good combination of both. Rich So yeah, so by the book I I bought mine on Amazon is that is that where you would suggest people go to or are there other places? Hope Sure, people can go to Amazon. Hope I think that's probably the easiest place, and it's in paperback, and there's an audible. Hope Then and people can find me on on Instagram. Hope And as the friendship here, that's if they wanna check out some more of my tips. Rich Sounds great. Rich Alright, well really really appreciate you being here man and you know it's good to just reconnect with, you know on a personal level so I wish you all the best. Hope Absolutely thank you Rich for having me. Rich Well, that's it for this podcast episode. Rich Please subscribe, rate and comment and share on social media and otherwise. Rich Visitrichlambino.com to learn more about my counseling practice. See how to contact me? Connect with me on social media and read my blog and E books to learn about other topics. Most importantly, if you or someone you know are looking for more support, I'm here for you. I look forward to you joining me for other podcast episodes. Rich Take care and be well.
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Unedited Transcript
Rich Lombino Hey everyone, it's Rich Lombino, therapist and lawyer. Welcome and thanks for joining. In this podcast, I explored topics for maintaining good mental health, expanding your knowledge, developing insight and creating and sustaining behavior change with the goal of improving the quality of your personal and professional lives. Alright. Let's get started. Today's topic is promoting positive ITI in a negative environment. With me is Polly Jansen. Hey Polly, how you doing. Polly Good, how are you? Rich Yeah, yeah, pretty good. How about we start if you want to tell the listeners a little bit about yourself. Polly Sure. So I've been in the field of social work approximately 25 years. I am currently working for the State of Delaware as a clinical services administrator. I work in a community mental health program called the Promise program, and the division is the division of Substance Abuse and Mental Health. Polly And basically we work with adults with certain mental health diagnosis and we help get them connected with Community providers with the goal of helping them to stabilize in the community and keep them out of hospitals. Polly And then I have a staff of. Polly 8. Polly Care managers and they each have case loads of people that they see in the community and then they just make sure that they're getting the services that they need. Polly So prior to that I also worked in the youth field for many years I worked in. Polly Basically the the child welfare field in Philadelphia. Polly I work for the City of Philadelphia and I was a case worker. Polly I was a supervisor and I also worked in the staff Development Department into training. Polly So I did that for several years and I've also worked in foster care and residential work with youth, so that was my. Polly Pretty much my my work prior to what I'm doing now. Rich What do you think Drew you to the field of social work and and helping people in that way? Polly My father was a probation officer. Polly My parents were both teachers, so I guess I became interested in it through them at 1st and then I had. Polly Some friends in college who were in social work and I was. Polly Actually it came came into school as a journalism major and decided that wasn't for me and I was kind of trying to explore different. Polly Fields and I took a couple classes and it was a really good fit. Polly I decided I really liked it and. Polly Guess that the rest is history. Rich Yeah, 25 years later, that's great. Polly I know right time flies. 5. Rich And it's and it's rewarding. Rich Being in like a supervisory role as as well as in the past doing the direct service yourself. Polly Yes, definitely. Polly I think right now, it's just it's it's good to be able to educate people and kind of share the experiences that I've had. Polly And then just to see people really grow in their own careers. Polly So I really enjoyed that aspect of it. Rich Great great alright. Rich So how do we shift to the topic at hand here? Rich Promoting positive ITI in a negative environment which you suggested and I think it's great especially. Rich What we're dealing with a year in, so how would you you know, introduce the topic or or define it what we're talking? Polly About well, yeah, I think. Polly It's it's something that's really important. This, yeah, like you said, this year is been really traumatic for everyone. It's been taking a toll on everyone's mental health with the pandemic. Polly Socially, not being able to see your friends and family, you know not having your normal routine like you would. Polly Uh. Polly Kind of being. Polly Trapped in in your house for so long and you know a lot of people are working remotely, but other people have had a lot of other traumatic effects. Polly Loss of job. Polly Loss of income. Polly An an an then it just in general the political climate has been difficult for people this year, so I think it's just been a lot to handle and it's just really been hard to keep a positive outlook. Polly And it's something that's important to me because I feel like normally I'm I'm. Polly Pretty positive, pretty upbeat, but this year has been a struggle for me and I've kind of had to reevaluate the way that I look at my life and and how I approach. Polly Every day in my work and my relationships. Polly So so yeah, I just I just have a couple of points to make that that kind of have helped me through this that I wanted to share. Polly I think first of all, just checking in with yourself and your feelings. Polly You know it's it's been, it's been so so difficult. Polly A man and I think we don't really take time out to really allow ourselves to feel. Sometimes right, right? You know you don't want to sugarcoat your life. You don't want to say everything's OK and I can go on. You really want to check in like, how am I really feeling today? Polly Uh, even like scale one to 10. Polly Maybe today is really really down day, like I'm a I'm a 2 today. Polly But just kind of to give yourself a baseline to really, really be honest with yourself. Polly And then. Rich Yeah, and what how would you compare like the baseline as far as your usual baseline versus, you know how you feel in that particular day? Rich How could that be valuable if you're able to determine that? Polly Yeah, I think it. Polly It just kind of gives you perspective on you know what's really going on on. Polly You know if I'm normally at an 8 but today I'm gonna do what's what's going on, is it? Polly You know things would work and I just really. Polly In a bad space today, like I'm I'm bogged down. Polly With all this happening, I'm reading too many news headlines. Polly Maybe an it's just really affected my mood. Polly Maybe I'm struggling with some relationships, so I think you know, kind of looking at where you normally are and where, where you are on any given day can kind of help give you at least a perspective and then maybe give you a goal. Polly To say hey, what can I do to increase my number and maybe have a better number tomorrow? Rich Yeah, that's a really good point I. Uh-huh Rich I think it probably also could help with not having like catastrophic thinking like things have been going pretty well for two weeks and then you have a really bad day and it could. Polly Right? Rich It could be very easy to be like Oh my God, you know this is how it's going to be every day or you know, as opposed to well look, look at it more. Polly Uh-huh Rich What is your perspective? Rich If you just look at today as opposed to, well, how have I been feeling it mean that could kind of. Rich I think also kind of put things in better perspective so that that particular day you actually won't wind up feeling as bad as as your initial reaction. Polly Right, absolutely yeah. Polly And then kind of going along with that. Polly Like what you said, you know you don't want to think catastrophic LY like everything is going to go wrong. Polly From then on. Polly You know you want to try to stay president and focus on today, and that's something that's been really hard this year. Polly With all that's going on. Polly You know we're thinking about what's going to happen in the future. Polly You know what's going to happen tomorrow? Polly You know what other restrictions are there going to be or? Polly You know, every every day this year is has been something something else. Polly It seems like when you turn on the news. Polly So it's it's something that I really. Polly Struggled with myself like OK, I need to really try to focus on today. Polly What can I do today? Polly What decisions can I make today? Polly What can I you know, control with my with my attitudes with my behaviors. Polly What can I do today to really to really be present and avoid being overwhelmed? Right? Rich Right, well, that's I mean, that's all at best. Rich That's all we have control over is our own own thoughts and actions. Polly Right absolutely. Rich And when all of these. Rich Things are going on around us, you know, not not much. Rich Good news in the world. Rich Typically it focusing on the the external could really bring down your your internal. Uh-huh Polly Right absolutely. Rich OK. Polly And then kind of stemming from that. See. Polly I try to think of the positive things that are going on. Polly I have a friend on social media who posts. Polly Almost every couple weeks tell me something good and it basically is like tell me something good that happened to you today and so people will post things you know just really simple things like meeting exercise goals. Polly I got outside and walk today around my neighborhood. Polly I caught up with a friend, you know, even. Polly Via zoom. Polly I finished the house project or. Polly I got a package in the Mail that I was waiting on or something like that or or or. Polly I just got through the day and kept my sanity intact an. Polly I, I think it's really a good thing to focus you like it's not all doom and gloom. Polly You can focus on what what has happened in your life, what? Polly What is something positive that happened today? Polly So I really I really do appreciate that that he does that, and so I really try to take that to heart. Rich Yeah, that's really sweet. Polly Miller Rich 'cause it's. Rich It's not just him doing it himself for his own benefit. Rich It's, you know, putting it out into the world and you know we're so busy and professionally personally very easily kind of just gloss over that. Polly Yeah, absolutely. Rich Not even not even recognize that. Polly Right absolutely. Rich Yep, OK. Polly And then I think going along with that is just practicing gratitude. Polly You know it's not just thinking of things that you are thankful for, like your family or friends having shelter, employment, but just expressing gratitude to others just for the positive impact that they have. Polly You know, compliments positive feedback. Polly Just simple kindness is, I think, just really do mean the world to people. Polly Up Polly I have one example that I just. Polly I was blown away we have yeah Christmas decoration in our window it's a leg lamp from the Christmas story. Polly It's funny 'cause I I, it's hilarious. Polly We love it. Polly We've had it for years and we put in our front window every Christmas and we got this card in our door that someone some stranger left in our door randomly and just said I I look forward to your lamp in the window every year. Rich Yeah. Polly It just makes me happy an my husband and I love it and especially this year I just wanted to say thank you. Polly And somebody just did that. Polly You know, out of the blue and I just like this is the nicest thing and you know, it's a complete stranger. Wow. Polly They didn't sign their name. Polly You know they just wanted to say thank you and. Polly You know it's just simple. Polly Things like that are really, really makes a difference for people. Rich Right, and even yeah. Rich I mean, that's another example of like kind of just doing something that made you guys happy and then it has an effect on. Uh-huh Rich Probably not just that person, because yeah, I don't know who wouldn't crack up if I know. Rich And I know get inspired. Rich Rich Inspired. Rich They drove fast. Rich It's so it's so funny. Polly Yeah, so just just simple things that you don't even realize the impact that you can have on someone else. Rich Right right uh-huh, that's cool. Rich Thanks for sharing that. Rich For sharing that exam. Rich Rich Yeah, yeah. Polly I think also just scheduling time to do the things that you enjoy, but also even trying new things. Polly You know, it's one thing we always say we should exercise more. Polly We want to work on our favorite hobby more, but it's always hard to really take that first step to actually do it and make time for it. Polly An I think sometimes for me. Polly You know, I kind of look at my week and I'm like, OK, let me make time on these days and I'm going to. Polly Go out for a run on these days or. Polly I had I. Polly Had some friends who they were kind of creative during the pandemic. Polly They one of them started an online exercise class and one of them was streaming live music and they would. Polly You know, put it out there that I'm going to do a class on this day and I'm going to stream my live music this day. Polly Can you please? Polly You know? Polly You know, during the live stream, and I'll be like, oh, OK, you know everybody's kind of zoomed out a little bit, you know, but I'm like let me let me try to do this and so I I participated in a couple of those things and they were really fun an and just. You know, being able to share that with somebody. You know something that was was completely new. Polly You know we we haven't done this before. Polly We're not. Polly You know, doing things on zoom, you know? Polly Before this though. Rich Oh no, no. Rich Yeah, no. Rich It's it's especially with creative people, you know. Rich Hey I need to get this creativity out in some way. Yeah. Rich You know if I can't I can't play in a bar brewery or whatever, or winery or just outside somewhere inside somewhere I gotta, I gotta figure something to get it out and bring joy to other. Uh-huh Polly People's lives, Yep, absolutely. Polly So yeah, it was. Polly It was really nice, neat, and it really kind of really just boosted people spirits, you know, just to see see that and you know just to try something new. Rich So you you planning anything you you or what? Polly Oh, not not especially. Polly But I have I one thing I did start doing again was I started playing the piano again. Polly I haven't done that for years and I'm like well I need an outlet 'cause you know it's kovid winter and. Polly You know I need something to do something fun, so that's something I started doing again an then playing with my husbands band mates and it's been a lot of fun. Oh wow. Polly So yeah, you know I'm like OK let me let me try to put myself out there and and you know, take a take a risk and try something. Polly They haven't done in awhile, so so yeah, it's it's. Polly It's definitely has helped, definitely. Polly Has helped with my my whole outlook and and my attitude. Polly So yeah, it's been fun. Rich Yeah, now I'm really happy for you reconnecting with an instrument. Polly Yeah. Rich This is really the time to do it and I thought I thought this story was just going to be like, hey, I have my upright piano or keyboard and my my place and I'm just playing but he took it to a whole another level. Rich Like no. Polly Right? Rich I'm going all in. Rich I'm jamming with the band and that's really cool. Polly Yeah. Polly Yeah, it's done well, it's fun. OK. Polly It's been fun, so Yep. Rich Right, so how do you want to sum things up here? Rich Or if there's anything else that you want to you want? Polly To yeah that was. Polly Those are kind of the main points and I just I just think that you know, kind of reminding ourselves, focusing on positive ITI is just important as we. Polly Continue to move forward. Polly I think we're seeing a lot of light at the end of the tunnel. Polly You know, with the with the pandemic we've got a lot of positive things coming with. Polly You know the vaccine being rolled out. Polly Uhm? Polly An it's you know good to see the numbers dropping everything but you know we're still in uncertain times and I think it's. Polly Just important to focus on the things that we can control. Polly You know our attitudes, our decisions are behaviors. Polly Just to help us avoid becoming overwhelmed and then also reaching out to friends, I think is really important. Polly You know you think you're dealing with this. Polly Obviously everybody is dealing with the same thing, but you often kind of get wrapped up in yourself in your own situation, and I think it's important to reach out to friends and family when you need to, because there are sharing the same feelings that you are. Polly And they can be a support to you even if you don't realize. Rich Right, no, that's a good point, because if we start feeling isolated, that's only going to exacerbate any negative feelings that you may have going on. Polly Yeah, absolutely. Rich Well, Polly, really appreciate you your time and positive iti sharing. Rich You know you're really positive person in general, so I think not just having knowledge on this topic but really being able to infuse that positive energy. Rich Obviously into this episode, but into into your life and the lives of those around you, which is. Rich Please keep that keep that going alright. Alright. Polly Thank you. Rich Alright, so take care. Polly Alright thanks you too. Rich Well, that's it for this podcast episode. Rich Please subscribe, rate and comment and share on social media and otherwise. Rich Is it rich lambino? Rich Dot com to learn more about my counseling practice. Rich See how to contact me? Rich Connect with me on social media and we might blogon E books to learn about other topics. Rich Most importantly, if you or someone you know we're looking for more support, I'm here for you. Rich Look forward to you joining me for other podcast episodes. Rich Take care and be well.
Unedited transcript: Hey everyone, it's Rich Lombino, therapist and lawyer. Welcome and thanks for joining. In this podcast, I explored topics for maintaining good mental health, expanding your knowledge, developing insight and creating and sustaining behavior change with the goal of improving the quality of your personal and professional lives. Alright. Let's get started.
Today's topic is finding justice for survivors of sexual abuse. And my guest is John R. John, good to have you here. John Rich, thanks so much for making time to talk about this important topic. Rich Yes, how about you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? John Yeah, sure, I'm a partner at a law firm in the suburbs of Philadelphia. I studied philosophy in college. I served as a naval officer and then I pursued research in Latin America through the Fulbright Fellowship program. After working with survivors of exploitation both in the Middle East and in Latin America, I decided to focus my legal practice on working with survivors of trauma and exploitation. Rich OK, now you have a lot of experience in this area. What drew you to to work with this important population and what inspired you? John Yeah, it's a great question and I think a lot of it has to do with recognition of many of the privileges that I've had over the course of my life. I grew up in a stable family with two parents where my needs were provided for as well as you know, the opportunity to have some education paid for by my parents. Whether it was, you know, private school or assistance with college and recognizing those privileges I think has made me acutely aware of those who don't have those same privileges. Those who are left behind in so many ways. And I think early in my career as a naval officer, I began looking for those around me who were in just sort of situations where they couldn't get out, you know where they couldn't get ahead, and very quickly I began to see that folks who are working day in and day out but not paid for that work right there in conditions of you know, basically involuntary service. They're sort of a prime example of folks who can't get ahead no matter how hard they work and how hard they try, they're not going to be able to accomplish their goals and dreams because the system is stacked against them because they're sort of victims of coercion and deceit and trickery. Such that they're in this, you know, situation where you know they can't ever get out of the hole that they're in. And so that was something that you know particularly bothered me when I was in the Middle East. Serving as a naval officer, I volunteered with a local organization that helped a lot of those workers get ahead, helped a lot of those workers take advantage of their rights. And that was something that once I left the naval service, I continued to focus on during my time in law school. Rich Well of course thank you for your service, especially in this important area. And really, you're talking about people who are it sounds to me just powerless and probably hopeless most of the time an also. For you not taking anything for granted in in your life, and recognizing the privilege that you had, and the luck of being born, you know where you were and your socioeconomic status. John So lucky so lucky. I think of that everyday that I just was afforded so many opportunities. I mean both academically within my family and you know, extracurricularly to develop myself and to achieve my goals that you know so many people don't have. So the the lack of hope, the lack of vision because of the circumstances that people find them. You know, working with people in situations of exploitation is that that's not just the case for those who are, you know, in conditions of involuntary servitude where they're working not getting paid. But it's also the case in so many relationships, and particularly where there's any sort of abusive activity in those relationships that there can be extreme power differentials and power disparities that can lead to similar exploitation, where as a result of coercion and trickery. People are doing things victims. Survivors are doing things that they would never do otherwise and that that sort of alters their life substantially, right, right? Rich And you know, we could talk about sort of transition there into sort of the symptoms of the trauma that they're facing, which you know in many ways you could say is PTSD, and I I'd love to hear some of what you, what you've seen. And I also wanted to note that you do have some clinical training as well as your legal training so you're really in a unique position to be able to have increased empathy towards what they're experiencing when you're actually practicing law with them. Although you've never gone through what they've gone through, just to have some perspective. You know flashbacks heightened state like such as little noises and movements can cause an overreaction, negative intrusive thoughts rumination - just can't get the thoughts out of their head, challenges with being in or finding romantic relationships, lower self esteem, blaming oneself, distressing dreams, shame. You know a decrease in the level of functioning in personal life, professional life and obviously many many more. Those are some of the symptoms that in working with with you know, survivors of sexual abuse I've encountered. How about yourself? Anything that you want to touch on? John Yeah, and first let me say that I agree with you. You know I'll never understand the depths of the pain and the depths of the trauma that survivors of assault and trauma have experienced. To be let into their worlds to some small degree as I've tried to assist them legally and kind of provide them options and paths forward. I can't, you know, comprehend what that pain is and you know over the course of working with survivors throughout the years, I've seen many of the things that you've mentioned. I've met with clients who have these negative, intrusive thoughts, whereas we're talking through a chronology of events. You can just sort of see the memory right come into their mind and just completely take over their thought process and that's all they can sort of think about, you know, for several minutes of that, sort of terrible memory and you know, it's all encompassing. And as the attorney in that situation, you just sort of have to be patient and wait and really kind of proceed at their pace and and kind of take your cues from the person who's across the table from you to see when and if they're comfortable moving forward in the conversation. Rich Right, right? Rich 'cause you have an important job to do, but at the same time. Rich If. Rich Rich If if the person is not not able to provide the information you need, you're not going to push them. Rich You're going to kind of meet them where where they're at, and do you ever experience is another. Rich Another sort of symptom of a trauma. Rich If a person is flooded with a traumatic memories to dissociate. Rich Sort of. Rich That's their their brain protecting them and kind of pulling them. Rich Sort of almost out of their body, and so that they're not actually experiencing the pain at the time. Rich Have you? Rich In addition to someone sort of breaking down, crying and really getting upset when they were experiencing it? Rich Have you ever seen something like that, or the person is kind of almost like the person is not there in the room with you any longer? John Yeah, I've certainly seen a significant attachment in my conversations with survivors about the sort of episodes of trauma as they talk about them. John It's almost as if they're talking about events that happen to another person when it is sort of a memory that they're bringing up about themselves, but there's a significant kind of emotional detachment from what happened. Uh huh. John Which makes sense, you know, as you said, you know had. John Training and sort of trauma. John Informed lawyering and interviewing and recognizing that that distance that emotional separation between the event and you know what I'm relaying to my attorney right now is important for survival if nothing else. Rich Right, great point. Right? Rich All right, how about we jump into your area of expertise or an additional area of expertise? Rich I should say the legal rights of survive. Rich First, do you want to, you know I, I believe there is a relatively recent change in the law and I don't know where would you like to lead off with that. John Yeah, I think we could talk about sort of why statute of limitations exists when survivors of ****** trauma want to bring claims, either criminal or civil an and then kind of talk about how those might have changed. John Does that sound? John Right, yeah, that's great. John So in law, if you want to bring a claim, you generally don't have the whole course of your life to bring a legal claim. John There's certain time periods in place for how long you have, and that might seem unfair to the person who's experienced some sort of pain or trauma or casualty, but the reason for it is to add a little bit of certainty to society. John Right, so people can't, you know, Sue you 30 years from now for something that you did because you want to know that you can move on with your life, right? You want to know that you can, you know, not have to worry about the car accident from 25 years ago because that was resolved one way or the other. John In the first five years after that, right, right? Rich Yeah, and it's not just at these cases, it's it's every almost all legal cases. Rich There's statute of limitations. John Yep, and that's true for both criminal cases and civil cases, and I know that until I was in Moscow, I didn't fully appreciate the difference between those. John So would it be alright if I took just a minute to talk about the difference between civil and ****** John I'm sorry, civil and criminal case. John Yes. Rich Yeah, John, whatever you feel comfortable talking about, I I think the listeners would really be interested in hearing about their rights like you said, and civil cases, criminal cases. Rich So that's sort of the the main point is to provide the information so that if someone listening to this has experienced. Rich Yeah. Rich Rich Something that we've talking about that person can make a better decision on whether or not. Rich To contact you or another lawyer to to see what what remedies they might have. John Fantastic, well, you know when I meet with survivors of ****** trauma, a frequent question is should I bring a criminal case or should I bring a civil case and so the difference. John Big difference between those two is that a criminal case? John Will result in penalties for the person who committed. John The offence those penalties could be fines that go to the government. John Those penalties could be jail time. John Those penalties could be up term of probation. John But in either case, it's all designed around sort of penalising the person who did the wrong thing, so that hopefully they learned their lesson and don't do it. John In the future, very little. John Of the criminal justice system is designed to do anything for the survivor. John There's you know few mechanisms in place to see that the survivor is, you know, cared for is restored. There's a growing trend of what they call victim compensation funds, where you can say you know someone so broke into my house and stole $25,000 worth of my things. Can I get my $25,000 back from the state? John You know, that's that's one thing, but when it's a much more intangible loss, you know my childhood over the course of 15 years was robbed for me. John That's not the sort of thing you can apply to the victim compensation Fund for to get, you know, sort of meaningful repayment for, you know, they might be able to help you with out of pocket expenses. John Counseling maybe some you know vocational programs but. John Sort of. John Nothing life altering and so where people find that the criminal justice system is designed just to penalize the offender. John They say, well, you know what system could be designed to restore the survivor and open up new opportunities for the survivor and that would be our civil justice system where. John Instead of complaining to the police, you file a complaint against the person in court, see. John In money damages an that may sound cold, or it may sound you know, sort of money grubbing, but I think that you know, whereas jail time and probation time is the currency of the criminal justice system. John I mean, money. John Money really is the currency of justice. John Outside of prison, and so you know, if a person is going to feel vindicated, that what happened to them wasn't OK, it's probably because the other person is going to be ordered to, you know, pay them some amount of. John You know, and if the survivor maybe had their childhood robbed from them, if the survivor was denied opportunities in life because they weren't able to complete school or they weren't able to reach their full potential, perhaps money would open up doors to them that were never previously available, right? John That might have been available otherwise, but for the. John You know behavior of the offender. Rich Right? John So I think that's an important distinction in these two systems, and then it's sort of worth, you know, segueing to the statute of limitations that traditionally you have a very short amount of time to bring a criminal case. John You know to the police, or to bring a civil action. John And so in this case. John In Pennsylvania, that time was was rather limited, right? John You would have 10 years to bring a criminal case of ****** abuse in Pennsylvania, and you would only have until the age of 30 to bring a civil action seeking money damages. John If you were a survivor of ****** abuse. John And what legislatures around the country have been realizing? John As they interview more and more experts of trauma and hear stories of individuals who were victims of this trauma in their child? John Word they're realizing that it takes those survivors, oftentimes years to speak out, and I wonder in your practice do you do you sort of see that as? Rich Well, Oh yeah. Rich I would say in most scenarios, specially if the the trauma happened earlier in life, let's say as a as a teenager and now the persons in their 40s. Rich You know your brain is our brains are programmed to protect ourselves, just like I was talking about earlier about dissociating. Rich If we have something traumatic happened to us, and we don't kind of deal with it when it happens, deal with it being get professional help and really try to work through what happened in your mind too. Rich Get to a place. Rich I mean, you're never going to be fully at peace with what happened, but get to a place where it's not affecting your functioning in a big way on a daily basis. Rich But typically what happens is our person is not able to deal with it in the moment. Rich It's so traumatic and after not that long a period of time. Rich The brain will sort of push the memories deep into their subconscious and kind of repress them, and they're still there, but they're not readily available an you know in our consciousness and that's because if they are we can't function. Rich You know if this trauma is like it just happened and it's it's stuck in your head, you're not going to be able to. Rich Typically go to work and concentrate and be emotionally stable enough to. Rich Live life to the fullest, but the downside is it's still there and it is actually still affecting a person in many ways a lot, many of which the person may not even know. John Yeah. Rich Like I mentioned earlier about relationships, intimacy not sort of 1, not realizing why it's difficult for a person to be. Rich Have intimacy with great his art, his or her partner, and I'm not just talking about *** any kind of you know the full spectrum of intimacy that physical touch can. John Right? Rich Can trigger even the subconscious memories and make the person uncomfortable or scared? Rich Or we're not even engaged. Rich Try to engage in relationships because of because of what happened. John Yeah, yeah, I've seen a completely different affect from survivors when I, you know, sort of 1st meet with them and this is something that they've you know, maybe not spoken about to someone else yet, or maybe just to one other person and it's still something that they're very much holding inside versus you know at the end of the case when. John You know they've had an outcome that is, you know, satisfying to them and and they feel empowered. John Maybe for the first time they feel like new doors are open to them for the first time and it's just, it's like a completely different, you know, source of light beaming into their life. John It's really incredible thing to see. John Yeah. John Rich Yeah, absolutely. Rich And I mean it's it's challenging any type. Rich Old memory that's difficult for us that we try to bring up years later. Rich That can be a really challenging process and this I can't think of very many others that would be more difficult. Rich And it's important for people to remember that it it could get worse before it gets better. Rich I mean, emotionally, because you're bringing up all these memories and. Rich And that takes a lot of courage to do something like that, but ultimately, to work on these things and and and. Rich And get into a better emotional state. Rich It's it's really what it is. Rich Is an investment in their future? Rich Because yeah, I mean we all want to be happy and healthy. Rich And if there are things that have happened in our lives that are holding us back, even something like you know you were bullied as a kid. Rich And then as you. Rich And you never really learned how to deal with that, and those feelings remained inside you, and now you're an adult and. Rich You know? Rich A professional and your supervisor is has a real toxic personality and is like a screamer it could. Rich It'll resurrect and trigger a lot of those feelings that you had as a as a child, and you might overreact more than. Rich Let's say that the average person you know starts screaming back at the person, whereas maybe if you didn't have that childhood experience. Rich Or if you did have that experience, but you're able to work through it. Rich You'd be able to react better to a difficult experience later in life, so I think there is. Rich I just bring up that example to say that there's there's parallels in all traumatic memories or traumatic experience experiences that are now memories that we can all work. Rich Do our best to work through to be in a better place. John Now absolutely, and you know along those lines I wanted to ask you if you find to be the case in your profession of sort of counseling and therapy. John The same thing that I find when I meet with survivors of ****** trauma that. John Often there's two big reasons that they don't. John Want to address this in a sort of therapy setting or in a legal setting, and I think the first of those reasons is that it's an uncomfortable thing to talk about. John An uncomfortable member to bring up and it just brings up a lot of pain an the second piece of that I think, is this belief that there's no use in bringing it up. John Because I simply have no evidence of it, and so who's going to believe me? John Do you? John Do you see those same two kind of reservations? Rich Yeah, absolutely, and just just about every every case it's. Rich It's painful, it's horrible. Rich And it's not just sort of working on it through therapy. Rich It's that next step which you've touched on is working on it with you because it's it's one thing to think about it. Rich Talk about it with a therapist. Rich Talk about it with friends or partner or or whomever, and it's quite another thing too. Rich You know, bring a legal case which those are public filings, and maybe you're testifying in court or in depositions, and you know, that's and then you have to maybe face you're the person you're accusing of, who, maybe you haven't seen in years? Rich Sure, sure. Rich Rich You know, let's say if something happened to you in college and. Rich And now it's 10 years later and you've established yourself in your life. Rich Maybe you have a young child and feel as though I don't want to put my family through this and all of those reservations, but sort of. Rich What's the point, sure. Rich Or because in the legal system? Rich I mean, it's almost never, maybe never a done deal. Rich A sure thing, you just never know what can happen, so there's always. Rich I mean, I wasn't a litigator, but I I would think that there's always some percentage of risk that you're not going to win that there's no guarantee that you're going to win the case, so that's sort of. Yeah, that's you know the client or person has to weigh that. Well, if there's a 10% chance that I'm not going to win. Rich Oh operative. Rich Rich Is it worth everything? Rich I'm going to have to go through for two years or have along, the case is going to be and that trauma? Rich And is the person going to, you know, do this or do that? Rich I'm going to be in the newspaper or whatever it is. Rich I know this is out of this. Rich For sure. Rich Rich I don't know if any of this will. John No, those are those are. Rich Be the case, but. John Those are all things I talked with my clients about. John You know, if you want to move forward with this like you have to recognize that you know these will be public filings, just as you said, you may be testifying just a few feet away from the person who did this to you. John Your family is likely to be involved. John You know your kids might get asked on the playground about this, you know. John And they they have to wait. John Those things, but I do want to take just a second if I can. John To kind of myth, bust around an idea that I hear both in these circles. John You know when talking with survivors and a lot of other sort of legal circles from potential clients where they say you know I don't have any evidence, and so I'm sure we won't succeed. John And I want to bust that on both the criminal justice front and also in this sort of realm of civil justice. John In these, you know, kind of money damage cases that we're talking about, and so in the criminal justice side of things in cases of ****** assault when someone is facing down potential jail time. John You know, as a result of their conduct, one of the instructions that juries are read before the jury goes out to deliberate is that in cases of ****** assault, because evidence is often so difficult to come by if the jury believes the testimony of the survive. Rich Right? John They don't need any other evidence to convict. John Really. John John They can convict the defendant who's accused of these crimes just on the words of the survivor alone. John If they believe that survivor is telling the truth, and I think a lot of people don't know that. Rich That's a great point because you know what is the physical evidence that would happen if something if someone was assaulted, they would go to the ER. Rich They would do tests, DNA. Rich And it's and you know that's best case scenario. John Best case, yeah. Rich But you know that doesn't happen all the time or or maybe hardly at all, so you're talking years later. But Rich You're right, there is no physical, likely no physical evidence. John Yeah, so then you know we talk about the civil justice side, the standard of evidence is even lower on the civil justice side. John You know, instead of having to prove your case beyond a reasonable doubt. John You just have to prove that it's more likely than not that the thing. John Curd, that's why so many civil cases settle out of court because, you know, people are afraid that you'll be able to, you know, prove that it's more likely than not that this thing a curd an in one of you know my cases with a client who I think had sort of fantastic transformation from the beginning of the case to the end of the case. John He came in talking about ****** assault that he suffered about 30 years ago, and as you can imagine, there was absolutely no evidence. John I mean, just nothing, no documents, no clothing, nothing, not even any witnesses. John No one could be helpful to his case. John And so my recommendation was, why don't you sit down and write about what happened right about your relationship, right about the big picture, right? John About the specifics, and so we did that and he brought it to me and I looked at the sort of painful memories that he was able to dig up, and I said that. John Great, keep writing. John So he went back and he kept writing and he got some more details and some more specific instances and he came back and said that's awesome. John Keep going and I think you know by the time he had finished writing. John You know we had 10 or 15 pages of sort of detailed challenging really, really challenging memories. John You know, I can't imagine how. John How difficult that was for him to sit down and sort of parse through those, but guess what was exhibits abcdefg H to my complaint. John That I sent the offender was all of those writings. John All those Journal entries saying here's the specifics of what happened. John Here's the inescapable truth you know to be the case that you can't get out from under. John And don't you know? John That case settled before we ever had to litigate. Rich It wow, now you did a really good technique there because. Rich A lot of times, if we're talking about something that happened a long time ago because it's kind of parts of it are repressed. Rich The more we talk about it, or in this case right about it, it'll trigger memories and details that come up. Rich So that was a great exercise. Rich Obviously, for the for the outcome of the case. Rich But yeah, that's great. Rich 1. Rich So anything else that you want to touch on. John Yeah, we sort of got sidetracked a little bit when talking about statute of limitations, and so we were saying that they were, you know, sort of a short time window to bring your claim. And the great news for survivors of ****** trauma is that in late 2019. John Pennsylvania's governor, Governor Wolf, signed into law three different bills that taken together, really eliminate the statute of limitations for criminal charges. John So you can bring. John Charges to the police of ****** abuse at anytime in your life now. And you can file a civil claim for money damages until you're 55 years old. So it's another 25 years on top of what it was. John OK. John And you know this might be relevant to your practice. John It also creates a fund for survivors to receive counseling. John So if you come forward and say I was a victim of, you know, ****** trauma years ago. John But I'd love to go to counseling and I just can't afford it. John That the state of Pennsylvania now has a small reserve to help you do that. Rich That's amazing that that is so forward thinking that kind of a kind of a resource, because you know finances can be a barrier to to anyone, depending on what what they're looking to do. Rich But as far as getting treatment for. Rich It's not just really treatment for what happened, it's also treatment for the process of bringing this case and all of the emotions at that person. Rich Going to be dealing with during the course of the case. John Absolutely, absolutely. John And you know, I think that there's some reservation, probably about speaking with lawyers generally about these kinds of things. John You know, I think that there's a concern that lawyers may not be trauma informed, or you may not have the vocabulary to talk about these things. John And that's a real concern. John An probably also some. John Concerned that you know, once I bring this to a lawyer, there's no stopping it. John You know that's going to be. John It's going to be public the next day, and I just think it's important that survivors know that. John They are in charge of whether there's a case, and then if there's a case, how far it goes, they remain in the driver seat at all times, and that survivor should make sure they find an attorney who's telling them that that they determine when and where to say, know when and where to stop. Rich Great. John And how far things progress? John And it's up to the attorney to listen to their client and ask for direction every step of the way. John And then if the client says this is all the further I want to go, that's all the further they. Rich Go, that's a great point. Rich I mean, you're an advocate for them. Rich You're not the person may. Rich Making the decisions you weigh the risk you think about the the likelihood of winning and lay it all out and then the person decides. Rich And I like. Rich Also what you said about just because you make a decision right now to bring the case doesn't mean that's how it's going to be forever. Rich If if you decide if they make an offer, you reject it. Rich But then sometime later. Rich You decide you know what I want. Rich I just want this to be over and that that offer is good enough for me. Rich You could do that. John Yeah, Rich, let me ask you as a therapist if a client was working with an attorney on a ****** assault case and the attorney needed to reach out to a therapist to basically have someone for their client, you know to sort of meet with the work on that healing from mental health perspective. John Is that something that? John You could do kind of in tandem with a lawyer while the client is receiving legal services on one side, then sort of therapeutic services on the other. Rich Yeah absolutely, especially my background as an attorney I think I would be a good sort of bridge between both worlds and. Rich You know, obviously the client would have to sign a HIPAA consent form so that the the lawyer and the therapist can talk to each other and and you know it could be limited on what they could talk about. Rich It's totally up to the person, just like we were saying earlier up to the case, but. Rich If I, I think it would be an important partnership because what the client is uncovering in therapy would definitely help the case and the lawyer you know could be informed of these new. Rich The facts are always there, it's just sort of the remembering of the facts and details. Rich Like the client you were talking about earlier, who was journaling and new new memories were coming to light over and over, and I think you know the lawyer could also. Rich So give the therapists a heads up on what's coming up, like hey, you know. Rich Next month we're going to have a pretty tough deposition. Rich Our clients going to be deposed by opposing counsel. Rich This particular opposing counsel is pretty aggressive, and I think it would be good if the clients up to it to prepare. Rich Emotionally for that right? Rich Because it's sort of the two piece of preparation. Rich There's your preparation as the legal counsel. Rich Like you know, these are the questions you'll likely be asked and you know, let's go over, you know, prepare yourself in that regard, but also right emotionally. Rich Prepare yourself if you're sitting there and someone asks that difficult question. Rich If you're able to prepare ahead of time, it's not going to. Rich Likely be as shocking or hitting you as hard because you already know it's going to going to happen. John Miller Rich I'm sure it'll still be emosh. Rich So I think it's you know it could help. Rich The legal case could be the driving force for the person to really work on these emotions and the work on these emotions could lead to significant improvements of the quality of the legal case, yeah. John And can you think of a sort of principle of psychotherapy that kind of speaks to the way in which? John A monetary result could result in kind of healing of 1's mental health. Rich Yeah, well, I guess you could say I mean the word that comes to mind is is closure. It's you know like you said earlier, they're never going to fully be made whole because it is an intangible. It's not like you. So you stole my guitar. It was worth $1000. You gave me $1000. I bought a new guitar. Right? Rich Anything with that you might have emotional attachment to that particular guitar, but really, when we're talking about this, these types of crimes there isn't a one to one perfect relationship, but I think there is from the people I've worked with. Rich There. Rich And just people, I not necessarily were clients, but just people I know and through my training and things like that. Rich There is value in the criminal case. Rich There is value in the civil case and it's it's justice feeling as though you you had your say because you've been silent. Rich Or forced to be silent in some ways for so long, maybe for years and scared and ashamed that you were holding this in an A shame that it happened. Rich There's a lot of blaming oneself that goes on. Rich It's my fault if I didn't. Rich Maybe if I didn't just go to the bar that night. Rich You know what? Rich If I stayed home, this wouldn't have happened. Rich Even though you didn't do anything wrong, you went out with friends and it's just there is a horrible person who did a horrible thing to you. John Yeah. Rich And so if you're able to, the closure piece of it is almost like the the logistical thing that happened. Rich Or the concrete thing that happened. Rich Maybe there's some closure with that, and that could give benefit to. Rich The emotional side of it that you feel as though you stood up for yourself. Rich You did something frankly brave. Rich Incredibly brave that you know I can't imagine what that would be like to just stand up there and say you did this to me and and you know. Rich So it could be an incredibly. Rich It's like that it's it's that 2 two fold. Rich It's can have incredible benefits for you, but also be incredibly difficult at the same time, so yeah. John I love the picture that you painted of the sort of therapist an lawyer working in tandem. John Kind of keeping one another informed. John To best support the survivor, who's going through? John Basically that gauntlet during that time you know and having all those challenges sort of presented after one another to have that team of professionals kind of working with them. John It's it's a really awesome thing to think about along those lines. John I'm curious, do you have any sort of reservations about if the. John Client told you that you know kind of gave you permission to testify on their behalf. John Would there be any? John Reason that you couldn't, you know. John Go to court eventually and potentially testify about. John You. John Know how that survivor has maybe grown over the course of therapy as a result of their meetings with you. Rich Yeah, I mean there's nothing there would be nothing stopping me from doing that. Rich As long as or any therapist I should say to just to make it more general. Rich As long as the the client signs a HIPAA form, a consent release form that you know, and I would say it would be important for the therapist to and the lawyer to go over what do you want to actually talk about? Rich Because you know the goal is not to go up there and like. Rich Read the progress notes that I've for every session that I've done for the year that we've been working together, you really want to. Rich Just like I'm sure with the survivors testimony or anyone else you want to distill it down to the key points and you know, think about the strategy involved and things like that so. John Absolutely. Rich It's, you know, I've seen it in different ways, some. Rich I think it's more common for the therapist to provide something like a letter that to the court that details sort of a an overview of the work that they've done together and in some cases there. Rich There is testimony that happens as well, so it really depends on the individual therapist, the individual client, the lawyer, ultimately, what would each person be comfortable with and. Rich And what would be in the best interest of the of the case as well? John Certainly, and you know, I bring that up just because that is, you know, can be an additional form of evidence, especially for cases you know years and years old, and there's no sort of physical evidence. John So maybe the person, journals and has some writings, but maybe they also, as you said, get a report from their therapist that's given to the court that says, hey, here's my experience with this person here. John But they've said and fact that case that I referenced with the gentleman who had done a lot of writing. John He did have a report from his therapist that I think move the needle significantly in the ways that it talked about. John You know the way that he presented his story and how it had so much of like indicia of reliable. John But it gave you know anyone who was reading it more of a reason to believe that what was written had actually occurred. John As tragic as it was. John Yeah. John Rich That's great. Rich Yeah, it's a it's in, you know it's a medical professional, an expert who's. Rich You know doesn't have any. Rich Not really have any. Rich It's really they're trying to give objective evidence of you know what we talked about and and observations and things like that. Rich So sure, it's anything like that can definitely add to the case, just like I would think. Rich Just like physical evidence as well. Rich If they go to a medical professional. John Yeah. John Yeah, absolutely. Rich Alright, well this has been. Rich This has been really great John. Rich I appreciate your time and your expertise. Rich I really enjoyed speaking with you as well and. Rich What types of services do you offer for survivors and how could they someone reach you if they wanted to? Rich You know learn more. John Yeah, so I think it's important that survivors just know what their options are, know what possibilities are available to them, and the best way to do that is just by talking with a lawyer and. John Most lawyers should be willing to give a free consultation around this kind of an issue. I know I certainly do, and the survivor wanted to reach out to me. They could call my desk phone directly at 484412061. John Seven and I'd be happy to speak with them and hear about you know what sort of options they're looking for. John Let them know what options are available and just give them sort of a light of the legal landscape an and so that they can be as informed as possible going forward. John And you know whatever decision they ultimately make. John It's completely up to them and I support them in whatever they want to do, but at least I want to make sure that they are informed of what their options are. Rich And sounds great. Rich Alright? Rich Well again John. Rich Thanks so much for being here. Rich Really enjoyed the conversation and. Rich I wish you the best. John Rich, thank you. John It's been a pleasure talking about this. John I'm so grateful that you're invested in supporting survivors in this way as well, and really look forward to working with you in the coming years. Rich Sounds good, take care. John OK. Rich Well, that's it for this podcast episode. Rich Please subscribe, rate and comment. Rich And share on social media and otherwise. Rich Is it richlambino.com? Rich Learn more about my counseling practice. Rich See how to contact me? Rich Connect with me on social media and read my blog and E books to learn about other topics. Rich Most importantly, if you or someone you know you're looking for more support. Rich Here look forward to you joining me for other podcasts at the service. Rich Take care and be one. Yeah.
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